County Supervisors Approve New Contract for Deputy Sheriffs

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The county Board of Supervisors Tuesday unanimously and without discussion approved a three-year salary and benefits contract with its sheriff’s deputies and district attorney investigators that will cost taxpayers an additional $62.2 million over the life of the contract.

The agreement raises salaries by a total of 8.5 percent in five steps between now and January, 2019 and includes a one-time lump sum payment for each employee covered under the contract that equals .5 percent of their current pay.

The raises will cost the county’s general fund $37 million over the life of the contract, according to a county staff report, with the remaining roughly $25 million covered through payments from cities that contract with the county for Sheriff’s Department services, and state and federal funds.

(Click here to read the full contract.)

“This is the first increase in take-home pay our members have had since 2008,” said Kimberly Edds, spokeswoman the Association of Orange County Deputy Sheriffs, the union representing sheriff’s deputies and DA investigators,

The Sheriff’s Department has roughly 1,900 deputies covered by the contract and the DA’s office has about 100 investigators.

Under the new contract, the annual base pay for entry-level deputies will go from about $62,000 to $67,500 in 2019. Deputies at the top of the 14-step pay scale will go from $93,870 to $102,107 in 2019; and sergeants’ pay will go from $123,000 to $134,000, according to the contract terms.

In 2014, the deputies approved a two-year deal that included a pay hike and improved health coverage to partly cover the requirement that deputies pay their full employee pension payment in year two of the agreement.

A sharply divided board of supervisors approved that contract on a 3-2 vote. It became controversial when then-Supervisors’ Chairman Shawn Nelson and John Moorlach, who voted against the labor pact, accused the deputies of pension spiking.

You can contact Tracy Wood at twood@voiceofoc.org and follow her on Twitter: @TracyVOC.

  • LFOldTimer

    Bill, it was a fun game. Thanks for playing. Most walk away by halfway through the 1st quarter. You hung in there for the whole game. And that’s goes to your credit. It was real and it was fun. But it wasn’t real fun.

    I hope you learned something in the process. Public safety compensation is always a great topic since it pits the taxpayer against those making out like bandits.

    And if you’re truly objective I think you see the merits of the taxpayer’s arguments that I articulated. I don’t expect you to admit it. Few do. But I sense you find the merits hard to refute.

    See you at the next kickoff.

    • Bill Colver

      Your statements make no sense. I now believe you are not of a 12 year old mentality. More like an 11 year old.

      Please proceed.

      • LFOldTimer

        Even though we disagree I bet you’re a good guy, Bill. I respect anyone who can hang that long with me in a debate. I bet we’d get along well over a brewski and a chuckle or two. Come on the board more often. I bet there are things we are in total lockstep on and can find common ground. Don’t let this subject matter put a crink in your nose. Look beyond.

        I appreciate the job that cops do, just like I appreciate my butcher, my car mechanic when the water pump goes out, my plumber when the main line is clogged, the lineman when my power goes out,. the tree pruner who works 40 feet about the ground and the pest control man when signs of termites appear. They all serve a purpose.

        I just don’t believe it’s prudent to pay cops like they have 11 years of higher education and training in the performance of their jobs. It’s strong-arming the taxpayers.

        The system is rigged. And as an American it’s my civic duty to protest it.

        Enjoy your Thursday.

        • Bill Colver

          As I’ve proven repeatedly they aren’t paid at the level you claim.

          Let me know when you want to have a discussion that doesn’t involve personal insults. I’ll be more than happy to oblige. Just don’t whine (like a 12 year old) when I hit back.

          • LFOldTimer

            Who made these comments during our debate, Bill?:

            “You strike me as a complete idiot.”

            ” If I were a loser like you I wouldn’t admit to much either.”

            Oh, you did, didn’t you? Pot/Kettle.

            I truly think your ability to think logically on this issue is messed up. And I told you why. Maybe it’s a little too close to home for you to see it. Who knows?

            Oh, and you didn’t prove jack, btw.

            Ok. Game over. Back to the locker room and the drawing board.

          • Bill Colver

            I did indeed say those things after you started making the attack personal. You stated that I must have or currently work for the government. Or a utility. Neither of which are true.

            I’ll stop telling the truth about you when you stop lying about me.

            Game over……you lose……again.

            Run along.

          • LFOldTimer

            Ok. You get the last word, Amigo. Feel better now?

  • LFOldTimer

    “The base pay of a GP physician is still higher.”

    Baloney. Reimbursement rates for physicians by both insurance companies and the government continue to get whittled down. It’s hard to get medical students to go into family or primary practice anymore because the financial incentive is not there. So most opt to go into a specialty, which requires 2 to 6 more years of training over and above the 11 years of higher education and training required by a GP to get a state license. An average HS educated OCSD cop receives more compensation than an average GP in OC. I talked to a GP just the other day. He agreed with me. So you’re out to lunch again, Bill. I just scored from the 10 yard line. 91-3 with 1:30 left on the clock. Are you going to receive the next kickoff or just head for the shower room?

    “Regardless, you stated people should be paid according to how many applicants per opening. Yet you defend the high pay of MD’s due to other factors.”
    Never said that. You only interpreted it that way because you had no other defense. A job should pay based on the education and skills needed for that job. READ CLOSELY, BILL: A HS educated cop should not make anything close to what a GP with 11 years of higher education and training needs to perform his job. Do I have to spoon feed that message to you?

    A lazy MD does not last due to the incredible responsibility of the job. His patients health are at stake. If he’s lazy he sets himself up for a malpractice suit. There is no POBOR in the medical profession, Bill. No protection. You screw up you pay for it. Not like a cop who lies on the witness stand or withholds material evidence who walks away scot free. Connect the dots, Bill. You don’t seem to be hitting on all cylinders today.

    I can’t link articles to this comment board. Go online and google ‘How much do Chicago cops get paid in salary, benefits and pensions’. Do your own work.
    I don’t want to run the score up on you any more than I have, Bill. Why not just run off the field and go take a shower? The water’s warm. And there’s lots of soap in the dispenser. But maybe you should take a cold one. You seem rather hot and bothered.

    Enjoy the rest of your day.

  • Rivett

    “Tests on criminal law, laws of arrest, probable cause, search and seizure, case law that some lawyers would struggle with, scenarios (shoot/don’t shoot), physical agility and report writing.”

    That’s funny, since Hutchens said the whole evidence concealment issue was lack of training.

    If those clowns are the ones who passed the rigorous testing and background checks, one can only imagine what the guys who didn’t are like… Oh wait, no one doesn’t 😉

    • LFOldTimer

      Yeah, the “needs more training” line we heard from Hutchens was a real hoot, eh?
      It’s my understanding the cops who lawyered up after the judge accused them of perjury or withholding material evidence in a criminal trial were all veteran cops with a dozen or more years on the job. And they didn’t know the standard rules of law when it comes to telling the truth on the witness stand or exculpatory evidence? ha.

      One mark of a civilized nation is “equality under the law”. When that simple and basic principle is no longer promoted by the leaders in our society we’re no longer civilized. Originally the rules said that the more power and authority assigned the more accountability. Today it’s the exact fricken opposite. Sorry, that’s not my opinion. That’s a fact.

      They’ve taken a beautiful thing and destroyed it.

  • Paul Lucas

    gotta make sure we pay them high wage so they can keep lying on the witness stand

  • LFOldTimer

    I’ll go one at a time here to respond to your claims, Joe.

    The police were never designed to be a domestic military force. We have Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force, etc… personnel assigned to stateside assignments. We have the Nasty Guard that gets activated in matters of civil unrest, etc… We don’t want the police officers to take on military roles or tanks in the streets. That’s one of the biggest complaints that citizens have about police officers. Many behave like all of us are the enemy. Police departments are supposed to be collaborative, not combative. The fact that you correlated the police to the military shows us where your mind is.

    I guess you forgot about the massive riots we had in the 60’s. Hundreds of lives and billions of dollars (present value) in property value were lost. Actually, crime has decreased over the last 20 years according to the FBI stats. And no, not because of superior police performance. Because of simple demographics and the aging population. It was actually more dangerous for cops in the old days because back then cops didn’t need SWAT backup. Patrol officers busted down doors. I much preferred the old cops to the new ones who act like spoiled brats with the POBOR entitlements.

    The simple fact that a HS grad is entitled to test to be a cop tells us everything we need to know. The police agencies are telling us that’s the educational standard needed to perform the job. Yet cops are paid in the top 5% of all American workers. It’s a farce. The Fed agencies all require a 4 year college diploma from an accredited university. And the quality of their personnel far outshine the local cops even though local cops earn more money than the Federal agents since local cops get paid tons of overtime and huge pensions that afforded to Federal LE personnel. For local cops the pay should be cut in half based on the stated educational qualification to test or the qualification standards should be raised considerably. Now it allows HS grad blood relatives with insider connections to get a job that compensates on average about $240,000 a year. A total farce.

    Go read my former posts. Cops aren’t even in the top 10 most dangerous job in the nation. This comes directly from the US Census Bureau. So please, don’t play the danger card with me. A roofer has a MUCH more dangerous job. He only gets paid $10-$15 an hour. There are MANY other jobs MUCH more dangerous than a cop. A 7-Eleven clerk on the midnight shift who make $10 hr. The list goes on and on. When was the last OCSD cops killed in the line of duty by a bad guy? In the 1990’s? Come on, Joe. We’re not 3rd graders.

    I realize illegal immigration is a HUGE problem causing a myriad of fallout. I’m on board with you there. And it need to get fixed. But it’s unrelated to our topic of discussion. As a taxpayer I resent being robbed to pay enormous sums of money for jobs that should be considered lower middle class semi-skilled positions. No way on God’s green earth should a cop be making as much if not more than a licensed medical doctor. And if you think he should you’ve got crossed wires.

  • Joe King
  • Joe King

    I agree with Ulrich. With all of the law enforcement related incidents happening around the US right now, we aren’t seeing anything major come out of OC. I may be biased because my friend is a cop, but the police in SoCal seem better trained than elsewhere across our nation.

    Research the home burglaries and home invasion robberies that have occurred over the past five years in the City of Yorba Linda. The OC Sheriff’s Department didn’t hold anything back. They called K-9’s, their helicopter, SWAT and many other services. To my knowledge, all of the suspects were caught. Go figure, they were all gang members from LA County, looking to victimize a wealthy OC neighborhood.

    Until I hear a better argument for why not give them a pay increase, I say compensate those professionals for what they do on a daily basis. In my opinion, they are the military on our soil, having to deal with an entirely new “radicalized” threat, migrating to this country that previous generations of law enforcement never had to. I’m sorry you’re so bitter LFoldtimer. I know I don’t want their job.

    Never forget 9/11… Never forget Dallas… Never forget San Bernardino… Never forget Orlando.

    • LFOldTimer

      The reason the public safety jobs pay more than what many medical doctors who require 10 years of higher education to hang out a shingle make (versus a high school degree to become a OCSD deputy) is because the safety unions have a stranglehold on the politicians, thus get whatever they want. We’ve known about this for years. It’s a scam.
      The reason I’m bitter is because, as a taxpayer, I resent paying people in to top 5% of all American workers for a job that requires such a minimal education and then letting them retire at age 50-55 with multi-million dollar pensions. It’s un-American. The job application to become a deputy sheriff says that a HS degree or equivalent is all that’s required to qualify for the job and join the team. Pure nonsense.
      Last I looked being a cop is not even listed in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the country. According to the most recent US Census Bureau it’s much more dangerous to be a roofer, a garbage collector, a truck driver or a farm worker than a police officer. None of those jobs pay close to what a cop makes. The difference is that when a police officer is killed it gets tremendous publicity from the media. When a roofer or a tree pruner falls to his death it’s barely a blip on the radar screen. So comparatively speaking, playing the cop safety card is terribly misleading.
      Military on our soil? Do you have any idea what soldiers make on the front lines who dodge bullets and IEDs while separated from their families compared to cops? Peanuts. Way less than half what a cop makes. Research it.
      Cops used to be a lower middle class job with commensurate pay. Same with jailers. Today many are paid more than Ph.D.’s and medical doctors. It’s become absurd.
      To add insult to injury, each police officer opening gets about 500 applications. Normal businesses would either lower the pay or heighten the qualifications if they received that many apps for a particular job. It only makes common sense. But not government which is nothing more than a big ‘pay to play’ operation that gouges the taxpayers to death.
      Okay, your turn.

      • Bill Colver

        I’ll bite on some of these.

        According to salary.com the average salary for law enforcement is $52k/year. The same site details the average salary for a medical doctor is over $200K/yr. Those are both base salaries. I’m sure there are ways both groups enhance that figure. That is using the same demographic nationwide. I’m sure the differentials are the same in a given locale.

        While I’m sure the minimum requirement is a HS degree, I doubt just any 18 year old with a diploma is accepted.

        While being a police officer is not one of the top 10 most dangerous professions there are other factors those occupations don’t face. None of the individuals in those professions ever had to worry about someone wanting to do them harm because of the clothes they were wearing that day. That is a constant fear faced by those in the law enforcement community. Even in OC. Way back in June of 1999, sheriff’s deputy Brad Riches was murdered by an individual who later stated he as just looking for a cop to kill. I have never heard a roofer or tree pruner have that same concern.

        Soldiers who dodge bullets and IEDs also enjoy numerous other benefits. Like subsidized housing, subsidized meals, socialized medicine, educational opportunities. Including a defined benefit pension plan you despise. Should local government start providing those same benefits for its employees in order to reduce their salaries? I doubt you would approve.

        Yes, police officers used to be lower middle class. They still are in many parts of the country. Explain to us how paying people less will attract a better type of individual to these professions. Can you point to a real world example where that has shown to be successful. Not coincidentally, those areas that pay law enforcement poorly also seem to inevitably have problems with corruption. Though I’m sure it’s a coincidence. [/snark]

        Who cares about the number of openings per applicant. That doesn’t mean all of those individuals would be good officers or even good employees. You must have never had to hire employees. You would know that people are not interchangeable widgets. Taken to its logical conclusion we should be paying MD’s (that you claim make less) according to the number of individuals who apply to medical school. We don’t. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

        • LFOldTimer

          Thanks for joining the back and forth, Bill. Let me respond.

          Salary.com is sort of like looking at the monthly BLS unemployment number. For August the BLS claimed U/E was 4.9%. Any intelligent person knows it’s a gross distortion since most unemployed people are not tracked by the BLS. The real number is well into double digits.

          No different with your claim about cop salaries (or better yet – COMPENSATIONS). Instead of cherry picking your numbers through salary.com why not just go to the county’s website (ocgov.com) or the State Controller’s website (sco.ca.gov) and look at how much full-time sworn OCSD cops make. You can actually see their names at the county website.

          The average Deputy 1 (entry level) makes upwards of $180,000 in compensation (salary, special pay, OT, pension, other benefits) a year. Show me another entry level job that has an entry educational standard of a HS degree or GED that pays those kind of bucks. A deputy 2 is more like $220,000. A Sergeant bumps up to about $270,000. Don’t even get me started on the top brass.

          The very fact that OCSD only requires a HS degree or a GED to apply for a LE job is a giant admission that’s all the formal education it takes to be a cop. It would be interesting to find out just what percent of deputies only have a HS degree or a GED. I remember the former OCSD acting chief Joanne Galinsky (after Carona) only had a GED and seemed proud of it in a Register article I read about her. If the chief only had a GED what about the rank and file? No job that only requires a HS degree should pay those kinds of compensations. But then I live in the real world. All the Fed LE agencies require a solid 4 year degree. And the Feds run circles around the locals in quality of personnel even though the locals actually make MORE in compensation than the Fed agents. All true.

          As far as fear on the job goes, a tree pruner has to worry about falling 50 feet to the ground to his death every morning he goes to work. He get’s paid about $15.hr. No pension. Same with a roofer. A 7-eleven clerk who makes $10.hr has to worry about some thug sticking a gun in his nose and demanding money. A fisherman has to worry about falling overboard into ice cold water and drowning. Those are everyday fears. They are paid a pittance compared to a cop. But they don’t have unions that legally bribe the politicians either.

          The fact that 1999 was the last time an OCSD deputy was killed on duty by a bad guy should tell you something. How many OC roofers or tree pruners died in the line of duty since 1999? You couldn’t count them on both feet and both hands. So please, stop playing the danger card. It gets old.

          If you ever served in the military you’d know that an average soldier’s total compensation is dwarfed by the an average OCSD deputy’s compensation that today stands at about $230,000 or more. The average soldier makes about a third of that. And the soldier must go on tours of duty in dangerous foreign assignments where he’s separated from his or her family for years at a time. So let’s get real, Bill.

          I have a few years under my belt. I knew cops back in the good old days who were paid much less that today’s cops. And their performances put today’s cops to shame. They didn’t need SWAT. They busted down doors themselves to get to the bad guys. They didn’t have POBOR. If they did something wrong they were actually held accountable. What a concept. Conviction rates were higher back then than they are today. And they were paid half of what cops make today. So paying people more does not equate to better performance. The police departments are a perfect example of that. In fact, I think it leads to corruption. I think the selection process is rigged to get friends and relatives hired. And there has been evidence of that in public safety.

          Chicago pays their cops top dollar. Corruption is rampant. This is true in many major cities. So your statement doesn’t make a lick of sense [/snark].

          The taxpayers care about the number of applicants per opening. We have to pay for all the screenings. It’s totally inefficient. When you pay $230,000 for an average deputy position you shouldn’t be processing 500 applications. It indicates the entry standards to WAY too low. But then it allows the chief to get his HS educated son a job on the force. Doesn’t it, Bill?

          Your logic on MD pay is totally flawed. We pay MD’s good compensations because of the HUGE sacrifice they make to finish their PROLONGED educational requirements and for their personal expenditures (student loans) to get through undergrad and medical school, which can amount to $500,000. If you think we should pay a cop in a job that only requires a HS degree or a GED the same or more as a licensed physician your wires are crossed just like Joe’s.

          Thanks for the discussion, Bill. I assume you won’t return for more.

          • Bill Colver

            “Salary.com is sort of like looking at the monthly BLS unemployment number. For August the BLS claimed U/E was 4.9%. Any intelligent person knows it’s a gross distortion since most unemployed people are not tracked by the BLS. The real number is well into double digits.”
            No it isn’t. The U-6 number folks like you trot out is a stat conservatives never cared about until Obama was elected. The vast majority of people didn’t know there was such a thing. Up until Conservatives discovered they could make positive news look bad by saying “But real unemployment is 12.1%,” U-6 had mainly been used by academics and economists to study labor utilization and not much else. The two numbers can move independently and U-6 will always be considerably higher than U-3, so bringing it into the discussion isn’t much more than a distraction. The number includes people who retired, full-time students, and stay at home spouses. Once those groups are factored out, the 4.9% figure is accurate.

            “No different with your claim about cop salaries (or better yet – COMPENSATIONS). Instead of cherry picking your numbers through salary.com why not just go to the county’s website (ocgov.com) or the State Controller’s website (sco.ca.gov) and look at how much full-time sworn OCSD cops make. You can actually see their names at the county website.”
            I recognize that OC compensation will be higher. Just like the salaries for MD’s you claim make less. That was the point.

            “The very fact that OCSD only requires a HS degree or a GED to apply for a LE job is a giant admission that’s all the formal education it takes to be a cop. It would be interesting to find out just what percent of deputies only have a HS degree or a GED. I remember the former OCSD acting chief Joanne Galinsky (after Carona) only had a GED and seemed proud of it in a Register article by Mickadeit (sp) that I read on her. If the chief only had a GED what about the rank and file? No job that only requires a HS degree or GED should pay those kinds of compensations. But then I live in the real world. All the Fed LE agencies require a solid 4 year degree. And the Feds run circles around the locals in quality of personnel even though the locals actually make MORE in compensation than the Fed agents. All true.”
            Again, so what?

            “As far as fear on the job goes, a tree pruner has to worry about falling 50 feet to the ground to his death every morning he goes to work. He get’s paid about $15.hr. No pension. Same with a roofer. A 7-eleven clerk who makes $10.hr has to worry about some thug sticking a gun in his nose and demanding money. A fisherman has to worry about falling overboard into ice cold water and drowning. Those are everyday fears. They are paid a pittance compared to a cop. But they don’t have unions that legally bribe the politicians either.”
            So what. There are proactive measures taken to ensure workplace safety in those professions. Not nearly the same as the very real fear of unknown assailant who wants to kill (usually in a very violent manner) you because of the clothes one is wearing to do their job.

            “The fact that 1999 was the last time an OCSD deputy was killed on duty by a bad guy should tell you something. How many OC roofers or tree pruners died in the line of duty since 1999? You couldn’t count them on both feet and both hands. So please, stop playing the danger card. It gets old.”
            I agree with on the dangers of the job. That wasn’t my point. Feel free to reread my post so that you may understand it better.

            “If you ever served in the military you’d know that an average soldier’s total compensation is dwarfed by the an average OCSD deputy’s compensation that today stands at about $230,000 or more. The average soldier makes about a third of that. And the soldier must go on tours of duty in dangerous foreign assignments where he’s separated from his or her family for years at a time. So let’s get real, Bill.”
            Yes, but they don’t have to worry about housing, food, medical or any other costs of civilians. You miss the point again. Your comparison to the costs of providing national security versus public safety at the local level are non-sequituirs.

            “I have a few years under my belt. I knew cops back in the good old days who were paid much less that today’s cops. And their performances put today’s cops to shame. They didn’t need SWAT. They busted down doors themselves to get to the bad guys. They didn’t have POBOR. If they did something wrong they were actually held accountable. What a concept. Conviction rates were higher back then than they are today. And they were paid half of what cops make today. So paying people more does not equate to better performance. The police departments are a perfect example of that. In fact, I think it leads to corruption. I think the selection process is rigged to get friends and relatives hired into these jobs that pay huge compensation with a minimal education requirement. And there has been evidence of that in public safety.”
            Again, how is paying someone less going to help an organization attract better candidates?

            “Chicago pays their cops top dollar. Corruption is rampant. This is true in many major cities. So your statement doesn’t make a lick of sense [/snark].”
            I know Chicago cops that would argue that point.

            “The taxpayers care about the number of applicants per opening. We have to pay for all the screenings. It’s totally inefficient. When you pay $230,000 for an average deputy position you shouldn’t be processing 500 applications for one opening. Duh? It indicates the entry standards are WAY too low. But then it allows the chief to get his HS educated son a job on the force. Doesn’t it, Bill?”
            Now you’re moving the goal line. I have never cared about that fact. I believe I am not alone in that mindset. That is the price of doing business. If I’m not mistaken it is why the written exam is given first. To weed out those who can’t do basic grammar and math.

            “Your logic on MD pay is totally flawed. We pay MD’s good compensations because of the HUGE sacrifice they make to finish their PROLONGED educational requirements and for their personal expenditures (student loans) to get through undergrad and medical school, which can amount to $500,000. If you think we should pay a cop in a job that only requires a HS degree or a GED the same or more as a licensed physician your wires are crossed just like Joe’s.”
            I have never cared about the sacrifices MD’s make for their prolonged educational requirements. Nor has anyone else I know. The point is that thousands who apply are turned away. Given your logic, any of those meeting the minimum requirements are just as capable as those who got accepted and are now doing the job. Yet we pay based upon training, skill level, and experience.

            “Thanks for the discussion, Bill. I’ll assume you’ll follow Joe’s lead and won’t return for more.”
            You assume wrong. I can’t wait to read more of your convoluted logic regarding your hatred of public employees.

          • LFOldTimer

            U-6 doesn’t capture the full number of unemployed citizens. Every month the government releases a number which represents the population of working aged citizens who do not have a job. That number exceeds 94 million. So use whatever logical skills you have and figure it out, Bill. I used the DISTORTED U/E rate of 4.9% as an analogy to your stated and distorted police salaries. We can discuss the labor employment numbers at another time. Let’s stay focused on the subject at hand.

            Many OC MD’s make less than your average OCSD cop. Read carefully: The educational standard to become an OCSD cops is a HS degree or a GED. A physician must excel as an undergrad in sciences to be accepted to medical school. Then he or she must successfully complete medical school which is a grueling academic achievement. Then an internship. Then a residency. A minimum 10 years of higher education and accumulating hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt. Specialties? Add on another 2-5 years. And a HS educated cop can match or exceed that physicians compensation. ha. Just goes to show how corrupted our government has become.

            I make cogent points that completely refute your claims and all you have to say is “So what?”. Thanks for playing anyway, Bill.

            Cops learn ‘safety measures’ in the academy and in field training. You act as if cops work the jail or jump into a patrol car without any training. How many cops would climb a 70 foot King Palm and trim the branches? My point is that there are MANY jobs MUCH more dangerous than being a cop that are paid a pittance to what a cop makes. You’re the one who played the “danger card”. I simply disputed it and described how there are far more deaths on the job in other lowly paid occupations. That’s a fact, Bill. So what do you say to that? “So what?”?
            When I speak of the military I am including their housing, food, medical and other allowances. The total compensation for an average soldier is about a third of the total compensation for your average OCSD cop. I am not including their air fare to Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria where they have to dodge bullets. It’s not a vacation after all.

            The government is paying cops now like medical doctors and the streets are still unsafe. Lowering the pay is not going to make the streets any unsafer. It’s simply going to normalize the compensation so that they are commensurate with the required education for semi-skilled labor. It’s not hard to learn how to be a cop. The differences between a Burns Security guard and an OCSD cop are greatly exaggerated.

            Of course Chicago cops would claim their underpaid. All cops do. ha. If we paid them all $500,000 salaries they’d still complain. My point is that paying cops more does not make our cities safer. And Chicago is a prime example.

            Allowing 500 applications per opening is “the price of doing business”? ha. Obviously you’ve never worked a day in the private sector. If a private business operated in that manner it would be in bankruptcy court within 2 years of opening it’s doors. Only in government would human resources allow 500 applications per opening. Of course the apps are screened with OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY who gives a rat’s behind if it’s wasted on inefficient operations?

            Of course you don’t care about an MD’s sacrifice for prolonged training or licensing requirements. Probably because you’ve never had aspirations to be one. That’s not the point. The point is that a cop in a job with a minimal educational requirement (HS diploma or a GED) can make as much or more than a licensed MD. You avoid that point. Let it sink in for a minute or two, Bill. Then we could have a logical discussion.

            Thank you for not following Joe’s lead and responding back. Your rebuttals didn’t add much to our previous discussion – but at least you made an effort.

            Oh, and I have no hate for public employees. But I despise the corrupted government system that pampers public safety workers with incredibly high compensations that are not deserved based on educational requirements needed to do the job.

            Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

          • Bill Colver

            “U-6 doesn’t capture the full number of unemployed citizens. Every month the government releases a number which represents the population of working aged citizens who do not have a job. That number exceeds 94 million. So use whatever logical skills you have and figure it out, Bill. I used the DISTORTED U/E rate of 4.9% as an analogy to your stated and distorted police salaries. We can discuss the labor employment numbers at another time. Let’s stay focused on the subject at hand.”

            Fair enough.

            “Many OC MD’s make less than your average OCSD cop. Read carefully: The educational standard to become an OCSD cops is a HS degree or a GED. A physician must excel as an undergrad in sciences to be accepted into medical school. Then he or she must successfully complete medical school which is a grueling academic achievement. Then an internship. Then a residency. A minimum 10 years of higher education and training while accumulating hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt. Specialties? Tack on another 2-5 years. And a HS educated cop can match or exceed that physicians compensation. ha. Just goes to show how corrupted our government has become.”

            If those MD’s make less than an average OCSD cop that is a conscious choice.

            “I make cogent points that completely refute your claims and all you have to say is “So what?”. Thanks for playing anyway, Bill.”

            Pretty much. Your points are not that cogent.

            “Cops learn ‘safety measures’ in the academy and in field training. You act as if cops work the jail or jump into a patrol car without any safety training. How many cops would climb a 70 foot King Palm and trim the branches? My point is that there are MANY jobs MUCH more dangerous than being a cop that are paid a pittance to what a cop makes. You’re the one who played the “danger card”. I simply disputed your claim and described how there are far more deaths on the job in other lowly paid occupations. That’s a fact, Bill. So what do you say to that? “So what?”?”

            Yes they do learn “safety measures.” Until they become psychic the unpredictability of people will still be an issue.

            “When I speak military compensations I am including their housing, food, medical and other allowances. The total compensation for an average soldier is about a third of the total compensation for your average OCSD cop. I am not including their air fare to Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria where they have to dodge bullets. It’s not a vacation after all.”

            I would like to see your figures on the costs you cite to substantiate that claim.

            “The government is paying cops now like medical doctors and the streets are still unsafe. Lowering the pay is not going to make the streets any unsafer. It’s simply going to normalize the compensation so that they are commensurate with the required education for semi-skilled labor. It’s not hard to learn how to be a cop. The differences between a Burns Security guard and an OCSD cop are greatly exaggerated.”

            The compensation level has been discussed and already proven wrong.

            “Of course Chicago cops would claim they’e underpaid. All cops do. ha. If we paid them all $500,000 salaries they’d still complain. My point is that paying cops more does not make our cities safer. And Chicago is a prime example.”

            Then you really don’t know your topic about them being paid well.

            “Allowing 500 applications per opening is “the price of doing business”? ha. Obviously you’ve never worked a day in the private sector. If a private business operated in that manner it would be in bankruptcy court within 2 years of opening it’s doors. Only in government would human resources allow 500 applications per opening. Of course since the apps are screened with OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY who gives a rat’s behind if it’s wasted on inefficient operations?”

            Pretty much. We can go back to the pre civil service days when jobs like that were handed out as political favors.

            “Of course you don’t care about an MD’s sacrifice for prolonged training or licensing requirements. Probably because you’ve never had aspirations to be one. But that’s not the point. The point is that a cop in a job with a minimal educational requirement (HS diploma or a GED) can make as much or more than a licensed MD. You avoid that point. Let it sink in for a minute or two, Bill. Then we could have a logical discussion.”

            The point is that thousands apply for those positions knowing the effort involved. It’s your logic that we should pay according to the number of applicants per opening. Which is it? Should we pay for according to that logic, or involve other factors?

            “Oh, and I have no hate for public employees. But I despise the corrupted government system that pampers public safety workers with incredibly high compensations that are not deserved based on educational requirements needed to do the job.”

            Your statements don’t substantiate this claim.

          • LFOldTimer

            “If those MD’s make less than an average OCSD cop that is a conscious choice.”

            Sorry Bill. That’s answers a cop out (pun). The point, as you well know, is that compensation for employment in America is supposed to be based on the education, training and skills needed to perform the job in a satisfactory manner. No comparison between a cop and a physician, yet the average cop make as much if not more compensation than the average physician in OC. Try to stay on point. A ‘conscious decision’ has nothing to do with it. Are you saying that it’s the physician is to blame and he should have become a deputy sheriff instead? ha. Hilarious.

            My points are very cogent. You just have no logical comeback, hence I get a “so what?”.

            All of us deal with unpredictable people every day of our lives. Cops are no different in that respect. But they are trained to deal with unpredictable people. Try to keep in mind that the police occupation is not even one of the top 10 most dangerous jobs in America. So it can’t be that unpredictable. Can it?

            “The compensation level has been discussed and already proven wrong.”

            You’re correct. But you were the one proven wrong.

            “Then you really don’t know your topic about them being paid well.”

            Chicago cops are paid incredibly well. Just like all public employees in Chicago. That’s the reason the city is teetering on bankruptcy. Do you research.

            “Pretty much. We can go back to the pre civil service days when jobs like that were handed out as political favors.”

            How is raising the entry qualifications commensurate for a job that pays $240,000 on average handing out “political favors”. Now you’re not even making sense. Today high school grads with inside connections in public safety are landing the overpaid jobs. ha. No wonder the qualifications are kept so low. So the chief can get his HS grad kid on the force. ha.

            You missed the entire point again (as usual). Entry qualifications should be based how much a job pays. If the average hiree makes $240,000 that is not commensurate with a high school education. A 4-year degree or more should be required. Duh?

            How many apps would Jack-in-the-Box get if a fry shaker job that only required a HS diploma or GED paid $200,000 a year. ha. Do the math, Bill!

            Of course my statements substantiate the claim. But the person reading the information has to have the logical skills to connect the dots.

            Enjoy the rest of your Monday, Bill.

          • Bill Colver

            “Sorry Bill. That answers a cop out (pun). The point, as you well know, is that compensation for employment in America is supposed to be based on the education, training and skills needed to perform the job in a satisfactory manner. No comparison between a cop and a physician, yet the average cop make as much if not more compensation than the average physician in OC.”

            That is the case. You assume that because one is an MD one should be paid at a certain level. That isn’t the case if the individual is unmotivated to work at a certain level. I’m sure (like all professions) those individuals exist. According to Salary.com the average base pay of a physician in OC is $208,000. That is significantly higher than the base pay of an OCSD deputy.

            “Try to stay on point. A ‘conscious decision’ has nothing to do with it. Are you saying that the physician is to blame for deciding to be an MD since he could have made more money as a deputy sheriff than by practicing medicine? ha. Hilarious. Fine logic.”

            Every case is unique. There may very well be those individuals who earn less because they don’t want to work the hours required.

            “My points are very cogent. You just have no logical comeback, hence I get a “so what?”.

            Not really.

            “All of us deal with unpredictable people every day of our lives. Cops are no different in that respect. But they are trained to deal with unpredictable people. Try to keep in mind that the police occupation is not even one of the top 10 most dangerous jobs in America. So it can’t be that unpredictable. Can it?”

            Not like cops. They are thrown randomly into situations involving people who want to do them harm by virtue of the clothing they are wearing that day. You’re grasping at straws trying to prove that applies to all of us.

            “You’re correct. But you were the one proven wrong.”

            Can’t force to read facts that show otherwise. I’ll allow you to have an uninformed opinion.

            “Chicago cops are paid incredibly well. Just like all public employees in Chicago. That’s the reason the city is teetering on bankruptcy. Do your research.”

            According to who? You?

            “How is raising the entry qualifications of HS diploma or GED commensurate for a job that pays $240,000 on average handing out “political favors”. Now you’re not even making sense. Today high school grads with inside connections in public safety are landing the overpaid jobs. ha. No wonder the qualifications are kept so low. So the chief can pull strings get his HS grad kid on the force. ha.”

            I’m sure that happens. Just like any other line of work. Though I’m also sure it is the exception and not the rule.

            “You missed the entire point again (as usual). Entry qualifications should be based how much a job pays. If the average hiree makes $240,000 that is not commensurate with a high school education. A 4-year degree or more should be required. Duh?”

            According to you. When you are in charge you can change it.

            “How many apps would Jack-in-the-Box get if a fry shaker job only required a HS diploma or GED and paid $200,000 a year? ha. Do the math, Bill!”

            Earlier you stated;

            “Normal businesses would either lower the pay or heighten the qualifications if they received that many apps for a particular job. It only makes common sense.”

            “Of course my statements substantiate the claim. But the person reading the information has to have the logical skills to connect the dots.”

            So know, your statements don’t support that claim. Should compensation be based upon applicants per opening, or other factors? You can’t have it both ways.

            Enjoy the rest of your Monday, Bill.

          • LFOldTimer

            I’m referring to general practice physicians as compared to cops. Not specialist physicians who require 2-5 years more training on top of the 10 years required higher education and training required for a GP. GP’s make squat. HS educated cops are compensated (salary, OT, pension, benefits) more than GP’s. That about an un-American as it gets. Again, it illustrates the extent of the corruption and pay-to-play in local government. If you think a cop deserves more compensation than a man or women with 10 years of high educated and training to get a license to perform their job – you’re wired are crossed.

            Some cops don’t work even though they get paid full compensations. It’s impossible to fire lazy cops, particularly the ones who are within 5 years of retirement. The comparison here is full-time GP docs to full-time cops. So don’t try to muddy the waters.

            When’s the last time an OCSD cop was killed by a bad guy, Bill? Answer: In the 1990’s. So stop playing the danger and unpredictability cards. It’s getting old. Cops in OC are about as safe as Obama sitting in the Oval Office.

            Chicago cops are paid incredibly well. Not according to me. According to the facts. Research it like I have.

            It happens? ha. It’s as common as a dog having fleas.

            “When you are in charge you can change it.”
            Unresponsive comment because I stumped you. You have no logical or satisfactory comeback. But thanks for playing anyway.
            You seem to be having a problem with attention to detail. 500 apps per opening for a job only requires a HS diploma that pays on average about $240,000 in compensation is about as stupid as a it gets. A halfway intelligent 7th grader would tell you that. Have you worked in government all your life? Just curious?

          • Bill Colver

            LF,

            You have changed course so many times it’s hard to keep track.

            Either you believe someone should be compensated to how many apply or you don’t. I cited the fallacy of your claim by using MDs as an example. I could cite many other high paying professions.

            I’ve never worked for government. How about you?

          • LFOldTimer

            Now you have to resort to straw-man arguments, Bill?

            Well, at least I respect you for staying in the game. Most would have booked to the shower room by this time. Particularly if it was the 4th quarter and they were down by 7 TD’s with the opposition on their 15 picking up 5 yards on each carry and driving in for another score.

            You strike me as a gov employee by your replies. Do you work for a utility company? I guess that’s considered quasi-gov. Same church, different pew.

            Folks employed by private companies generally aren’t so forgiving of gov operations which would throw a balance sheet into a nose dive and straight into the ground.

            You’re a good sport, Bill. I’ll give you that. Your logic has gone haywire. But you’re a good sport. And that’s all that really counts.

            If you want to continue I’ll play. I hate to keep running the score up on you. My intent is never to make another man look bad. If you want to change the subject I’m open to it. Something less intimidating. How ’bout the weather? Think we’re in for a dry El Nina this winter or a wet one?

          • Bill Colver

            “Now you have to resort to straw-man arguments, Bill?”

            Nope. Just countering your flawed logic.

            “Well, at least I respect you for staying in the game. Most would have booked to the shower room by this time. Particularly if it was the 4th quarter and they were down by 7 TD’s with the opposition on their 15 picking up 5 yards on each carry and driving in for another score.”

            Why would I leave a discussion with someone like you? Since you are in to sports metaphors. The one that describes you best is moving the goal line.

            “You strike me as a gov employee by your replies. Do you work for a utility company? I guess that’s considered quasi-gov. Same church, different pew.”

            You strike me as a complete idiot.

            “Folks employed by private companies generally aren’t so forgiving of gov operations which would throw a balance sheet into a nose dive and straight into the ground.”

            Folks employed by government don’t care what folks like you think. The folks I know in the private sector are too busy making multiple six digit salaries to care what public employees earn. You must be one of those making minimum or minimal wages.

            “You’re a good sport, Bill. I’ll give you that. Your logic has gone haywire. But you’re a good sport. And that’s all that really counts.”

            You’re weak sauce LF. You make arguments applying one set of logic and then ignore it when it no longer suits your purposes. Your mindset is completely situational.

            “If you want to continue I’ll play. I hate to keep running the score up on you. My intent is never to make another man look bad.”

            You have yet to do that, so give it your best shot.

            “Oh, btw. If I ever worked for the gov I’d never admit it publicly.”

            I was in the military for more than a couple of years. I am very proud of my government service. If I were a loser like you I wouldn’t admit to much either.

          • LFOldTimer

            Gee, Bill. Now you’re getting angry and resorting to personal insults. A sure sign that I have you on the ropes. Throughout our little dialogue it’s been obvious to me that your ability to think logically was stunted as some point in your life. When you were in the military did you bump your head?

            Most people who work in the private sector are not rich. The problem is that they are forced to finance the compensations and fat pensions of all the incompetent and lazy government workers. It’s a rigged system.

            It appears that you got nothing left but insults to defend your indefensible position. I know I didn’t change your mind – but I suspect I’ve changed the minds of some who took the time to read our back and forths. It’s obvious that I’ve overwhelmed you with facts that you failed to respond to in a satisfactory manner.

            4th quarter – 2 minutes left on the board. LFOldTimer: 84; Bill: 3. (hit the left upright and squeezed through the goal posts). LFOldTimer on Bill’s 5 yard line. 1st and 10.

            Enjoy your Wednesday, Bill.

            Don’t go away mad.

    • David Zenger

      “In my opinion, they are the military on our soil…”

      We already have a “military on our soil.” It’s called the US Army.

  • John Claxton

    UVL comments in part below “You realize the cities these cops work in are some of the safest in the United States right? That’s not because people are just better there, it’s because they provide top notch service. They’re good at what they do and deserve a pay raise.”

    Yes, I think it is because the people are better. Well maybe not better, but busier. There is a price tag that goes along with living in the OC – even the rentals – are mostly unaffordable for a lot of people. The ones than can afford it are working 50+ hours a week to make ends meet. Not sure high paid OC cops affect the crime rate as much as other factors.

    • LFOldTimer

      The cops in Chicago make boodles of money.

      Have you checked Chicago’s crime rates recently? Particularly their violent crime rates?

      UVL’s comments make no sense to me.

      • John Claxton

        Yes, Chicago is out of control. Probably why the Obama ‘a are staying in DC rather than moving back home. Even with secret service protection.

        • LFOldTimer

          It’s not just Chicago. It’s many cities in America where cops are paid top dollar, which totally contradicts UVL’s previous claims.

          Bottom line? Highly paid cops does not equal safe cities.

  • LFOldTimer

    Didn’t they just get a 10% salary increase (some even more with step increases) a year or two ago?

    This will hike the pension payouts too since the pension formulas are based on salaries. That’s not even mentioned in the article.

    High school grads with badges paid like small particle molecular nuclear physicists. ha.

    Go to the County website employee compensation page and look at how much they really make w/ salary, overtime, special pay, pensions and other bennies. Your eyes will pop out of your head.

    No wonder most cops have a long line of relatives in the same business. All in the family. What a gig.

    • Ulrich Von Liechtenstein

      Yeah you’re right let’s lower their pay so they can end up like Sam Jose or Detroit right?

      Better yet, let’s just do away with police. From now on, you protect yourself and catch your own daughter’s rapist, if you can find him.

      Cops do the dirty work none of us wants to do in society. I, for one, am happy they’re well paid.

      • LFOldTimer

        If we could loosen the stranglehold that the safety unions have over the politicians (pay to play) we could cut the pay for cops in half and not lose an iota of public safety. With the residual funds we could stop crime with alternative methods. Like training people for skilled jobs so they won’t commit crimes to make money. The entire system has turned into a scam. The taxpayers are being pummeled.

        Most serious crimes aren’t even solved. About 44% of murders in California go unsolved. A CBS News investigation revealed that about 75% of rapes go unsolved. So while you’re claim has lots of emotional appeal, it short on facts.

        Sorry. You and I will always disagree. Cops do not deserve to make as much or more as medical doctors based upon the qualifications necessary for the jobs. It’s un-American.

        And there are MANY MANY people who apply to become cops. About 500 applications per opening. So, again, you fall short on the facts.

      • David Zenger

        “You realize the cities these cops work in are some of the safest in the United States right? That’s not because people are just better there, it’s because they provide top notch service.”

        Oh, stop it. The vast majority of deputy sheriffs work under contract in south Orange County cities where crime rates are low, and socio-economic conditions pretty good. Were talking about comparatively wealthy citizens, pretty good schools, etc.

        Maybe this should mean getting paid less.

        As for being “good at what they do,” I’m afraid the question of goodness or badness has been rendered meaningless by POBR, a grim bit of extortion extracted by supine politicians in the Legislature at the cost of transparency and equal protection under the law (14th Amendment).

        • LFOldTimer

          POBOR? You mean those club credentials that give cops free rein to lie on the witness stand and withhold material evidence that might exonerate a defendant from judicial punishment without any fear of punishment?

          The new magical phrase is “needs more training”. Those 3 magical words have saved more careers and kept more cops out of jail than a meat train full of five-star attorneys who charge $600/hr.

          South county cops are in about as much danger as a monk living in a Himalayan monastery. And the average one pulls down about $240,000 a year in compensation. What a gig.

          But UVL says nobody wants to be one! ha. Hilarious! UVL should do stand-up!

    • Sean Murphy

      So are you going to do the Job I Doubt it!!!!!!

      • LFOldTimer

        Sean, if somehow I could stop paying my share of taxes to support the overpaid cops and not get any police protection as a result – I would do it in a NYC minute. Trust me.

        I am very capable of protecting myself and my family. If someone breaks into my residence with intent to harm either myself or a member of my family (to include my dog) the only service I’ll need is for someone to carry him feet first from my place to the appropriate location for processing. And I will gladly pay an ala carte rate for that service.

        Any more comments?