• OCservant_Leader

    Thank you Rose for your caring and love of animals and your ongoing TENACITY to expose this corrupt organized family in power in Orange County Government.

    Until they “the family” are extracted, all services to the public will continue to flounder. Unfortunately, this includes the plight of animals.

    The issue of the Animal Shelter is just one example the County has been hijacked. This crew is a heartless, greed driven bunch. They came to power in the 1990’s with their voter fraud schemes. Their tentacles reach out to all the cities in the County as well – as you pointed out. Failed public services – across the board.

    Their PR professionals direct them to “throw the animals a bone” to stop bad press but it is superficial. Building one new shelter after 75 years is simply dereliction of duty.

    I’m afraid your thoughtful plea for mercy continues to fall on deaf criminal ears.

    Keep up the fight.

  • LFOldTimer

    Rose, just curious…is the cat in the picture yours? Very cute. But it looks non-denominational to me. Are you sure it’s Catholic?

  • Vicki

    I keep reading in the comments that “animals have no Souls”, and I want to add that in scripture I do not see this doctrine supported.
    Having lost 4 dogs I believe I will see them again.
    It was not by chance that Christ was born in a manger, among the animals. He loves them.
    It was not by chance that the Ark (a type and shadow of the rapture) was filled with (saved) animals.
    Remember the scripture and vision in The Book of Acts where God said “Arise kill and eat”? And God said (speaking of animals) do not call “unclean” what I have called “clean”. It seems to me that if something has no Soul it cannot be neither “clean” nor “unclean”.
    Remember that Christ will return on a horse. Read Revelation, how can animals be finite and without a Soul and still be in Heaven.
    God is a restorer, He will restore ALL things. ALL creation longs and travails for His return.
    The Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin so before Christ came and shed His own blood for us, God accepted the shed blood of innocent animals (not plants) and (not sinful humans) as atonement until the perfect Lamb of God made the final sacrifice and said “It is finished”.
    Remember when Abel’s blood cried out to God (after his death) by Cain? Blood = Life
    God did not create animals for this life only. In the Garden of Eden, he created animals and us to live forever. Man chose (not God) to sin and changed that by bringing spiritual death to man.
    Also read Genesis, we were not designed to eat animals in the beginning, that behavior (death)came (after) the fall of man.
    I look forward to seeing my dogs and friends in Heaven when ALL creation is restored!

    • LFOldTimer

      Hi Vicki, thanks for joining the discussion.

      I am just telling you what I was taught by priests and nuns during my Catholic education – that animals do not have souls and can’t go to heaven. That’s the reason I questioned the Catholic Church blessing the animals that appears to be a recent phenomenon. It’s contradictory to what I was taught by those who understood Catholic Doctrine much better than I.

      We would all like to see our animals in the afterlife. Wouldn’t that be fantastic? A huge reunion. Are the Catholic’s correct in their assumption? Beats me. But to bless animals while the Church teaches that animals have no soul and can’t go to heaven seems rather strange.

      Your interpretation of a single passage in the bible is just that…an interpretation. All I know is that the Catholic Church taught me that animals do not have souls and can’t go to heaven. I recall how disappointed I was when I heard it.

      It seems to me that during the time of Jesus those who claimed to be super holy committed acts of cruelty and violence on animals all the time – animals were sacrificed on altars for the spiritual benefit of human beings all the time. How cruel was that?

      I hope to see my animals in the afterlife too. But I won’t count on it.

    • LFOldTimer

      Hi Vicki, I sent you a reply but unfortunately it was censored again. It was initially approved and went into moderation about 10 minutes later.

      The comment was very benign – as it adhered to all the board rules. But apparently only certain opinions are allowed under this blog.

      I wonder whether the old Soviet Union operated this way?

      But just to let you know….I tried.

    • LFOldTimer

      Hi Vicki, thanks for joining the discussion.

      I am just telling you what I was taught by priests and nuns during my Catholic education – that animals do not have souls and can’t go to heaven. I didn’t ask if animals could go to h*ll. I sure wouldn’t want to see all my former pet animals there. lol. But I assume not. That wouldn’t be very fair of God. But that’s the reason I questioned the Catholic Church blessing the animals that appears to be a recent phenomenon. It’s contradictory to what I was taught by those who understood Catholic Doctrine much better than I.

      We would all like to see our animals in the afterlife. Wouldn’t that be fantastic? A huge reunion. Are the Catholic’s correct in their assumption? Beats me. But to bless animals while the Church teaches that animals have no soul and can’t go to heaven seems rather strange.

      Your interpretation of a single passage in the bible is just that…an interpretation. All I know is that the Catholic Church taught me that animals do not have souls and can’t go to heaven. I recall how disappointed I was when I heard it.

      It seems to me that during the time of Jesus those who claimed to be super holy committed acts of cruelty and violence on animals all the time – animals were sacrificed on altars for the spiritual benefit of human beings all the time. How cruel was that?

      Remember the parable when Jesus created a multitude of fish and loaves of bread for the hungry people to eat? So apparently Jesus believed in people eating animals too.

      I hope to see my pet animals in the afterlife too. But I won’t count on it.

      P.S. – My earlier comment was placed into moderation because I wrote the word hel*. Can you believe that? So I had to substitute an asterisk for a letter. Crazy.

      • Vicki

        Hi LFOldTimer,
        I understand your Catholic teaching. I believe as Christians that the Holy Spirit is our Comforter, our Teacher. As far as “Blessing Animals”, I believe we can all do that daily. I went to Orange County Animal Care yesterday with my husband and gave out treats to the Dogs “in prison” there. Remember when Jesus told the parable about (visiting Me in prison, feeding Me when I’m hungry) and the 12 asked when they did this and He answered in so much as you do this to the least of these my brethren you do it unto Me? Not a sparrow falls to the ground without Him knowing it.
        Sacrifice is cruel, Sin is Cruel, the cross was extremely cruel and all of those things are man’s doing, not God’s.
        Remember when Abraham was going to sacrifice his (own) son and God stopped him and said He, (Himself) would provide a sacrifice? He was speaking prophetically of Himself providing (His own son) the sacrificial Lamb and atonement. The Bible says to obey is better than sacrifice.
        I just want to tell you a couple of stories my Comforter, my Teacher has shown me. When I was a little girl I had a dog that wandered onto my property in Mississippi and I asked my mom if we could keep her. She (Queenie) was so smart and I knew she wanted to stay at our home so mom agreed. She had advanced heartworms that my mom said the Vet could not treat as it was too late. Well that girl loved me, she would follow me around on my bike, follow me into town in Sumner, MS when I would go. One time dogs were chasing me on my bike and she (by herself) turned on them and protected me. She was my protector, my love. One day I came home after a bike ride and went into the house to get her a drink of water, after I gave her the water I got up from the grass to get my bike and my friend said there is something wrong with your dog. I turned around and blood was gushing from her mouth. Her heart. I ran inside to tell my mom. Queenie turned and headed after me down our long driveway with the gushes of blood coming out rhythmically like heart beats. My mom open the door to our carport and Queenie staggered towards us, she came inside the carport and collapsed in front of us. She used every last drop of blood inside her to get to me. Remember when the sword pierced Yeshua (Jesus) and water came out. He used all His strength, (all His blood) to get close to us.
        This past year my husband and I brought home a very sick blind Pug from a rescue. We had Him about a month. He had been at the rescue for about 2 years and his end was near but he had a home at the end. When Arthel passed naturally at our home, we placed our hands on him and prayed for the Angels to come and take him, he climbed on his bed, placed his head forward on his pillow, put both his arms out to the side and went home. His little body forming the shape of a cross. Similar to my mom’s ashes (that were poured out by my uncle) at her service in the shape of a cross six years earlier. Signs given by God to comfort me.
        I believe will see them again. I am counting on it. : )

        • LFOldTimer

          Vicki, as I mentioned in my comments I am an animal advocate and have been all my life. I fully concur that we should treat animals humanely, not kill them for sport, care for them when they’re sick, give shelter to domestic animals, etc…

          But when we discuss animals we should keep Jesus and religion out of it. Jesus too was a meat eater. And Jesus fed animals to his followers. Jesus also promoted the sacrifice of animals for spiritual reasons. When people start invoking religion when it comes to animals it becomes a dangerous conversation. People use religion as a weapon. Most of the Christian community believe that animals do not go to heaven. The Catholics teach that for sure. Does anyone really know where animals go after they die? Of course not. It’s all guesswork. But people love to speculate. When discussing the treatment of animals we should not add to that speculation and tie it religion. It only adds drama and spite to the conversation and there’s enough drama and spite in life. So let’s keep it to a minimum.

          And the same with personal politics. The beauty or the evilness of a politician is in the eye of the beholder. But using animals to promote personal politics is IMO abusive to animals. Better to separate the two. It devalues the animal rights cause. There is more than enough blame to go around. One or two politicians from a particular party are not responsible for the plight of animals. It takes a village, so to speak.

          I fully agree that the County management (BoS, OCAC, Community Services, etc..) are responsible for the reprehensible treatment of the animals under their care for the last couple decades. They are directly responsible for it since they run the animal control agency and the shelter. So I completely agree that all of them (without exception) should be condemned and chastised.

          But focusing on the family of one Presidential candidate is over the top. I think we can all agree on that.

          • Vicki


            I joined the discussion to give my opinion (this is a opinion piece), not to bring drama and not to tell others what they should or should not talk about inferring that their opinion is “dangerous”. You are over stepping your boundaries by telling me or anyone what I should think or say. We all have God given free will and I will speak about whatever I feel led to say, thank you for your concern but it is without merit. Kindly refrain from telling me what to think or say, in other words do not try and censor me, you did not like that when your opinion was “supposedly” censored (as your earlier comments indicate) so you should know that is not appropriate. My first post was in responding to your religious (Catholic) teachings, remember that.

            Where in scripture you see Jesus promoting sacrificing animals? Since He came as the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world. That single action ENDED animal sacrifice. Do you ever read anywhere after the Cross of Christ where the bible promotes animal sacrifice? If not, how can you say that Jesus aka God in giving His OWN life as a sacrifice was promoting doing such a thing?
            Also, when Jesus fed the thousands, He started with 2 (two) fish and fed thousands. How did He do that? Did the fish mate and spawn as they traveled down the rows of people?? He the CREATOR fed them just like he fed the children manna in the wilderness, surely you don’t think (He that spoke you into being) was doing something morally wrong that day when thousands were satisfied and provided for out of His infinite power.
            As far as anything being over the top, that is someone’s opinion and they can state it just like they can “bless whomever they want”, (they may or not be right) but they can say it (freedom of speech). I don’t think whether someone blesses an animal (or not) is something to worry too much about IMO.

            I don’t think we can separate religion and politics though since government is founded on morals. That would not make sense. If I say your wrong, I need to say (on what authority) I make that claim otherwise we descend into moral relativism.
            I also don’t need to control every single thing someone does or says. I vote for candidates based on their platform and if they line up with my moral convictions.
            I try to focus on my own imperfections (the log in my eye) and what God has for me to do in order to grow and change in Him. Remember Martha who complained that she was doing SO MUCH and Mary SO LITTLE? She wanted Jesus to correct his servant but Jesus corrected her. You do you friend and I’ll do me and God will do the rest.

            As far as the government and their treatment of animals, the problem is multi-faceted. I believe, as stated in the opinion, there needs to be more education but
            I believe there also needs to be more enforcement. So many of the animals at OCAC come in neglected. There is a limit as to how many animals you can own in Orange County right now and if you have more then you are suppose to have a permit.
            I am all for OCAC going door to door to check on compliance of this and for them checking on the health and care of the animals, whether they are licensed, vaccinated, etc.

            We are caretakers of God’s creation, it is a blessing we are entrusted with and people need to see “owning” animals (not as a right) but instead as a privilege.

            P.S. I don’t think Rose’s cat is Catholic, cats are independent thinkers, not followers of men. 🙂

          • LFOldTimer

            I have as much a right to my opinion as you do. And if I think that blessing animals and the religious practice of elevating animals to the human spiritual level, as apparently practiced by the Catholic Church, is inappropriate or even dangerous – I will state such. Who said that you couldn’t have your opinion? Not me. That’s for sure. So why are you putting words in my mouth? You need to calm down.

            Animal sacrifices in the Temples were commonplace during the life of Jesus. Jesus did protest per the Cleansing of the Temple when the money changers turned his Temple into a storefront. But I never read a parable about Jesus turning over tables and chairs in protest of animal sacrifices in the Temples so that humans could experience the temporary forgiveness of sin. Did you?

            I never said Jesus did anything wrong when he fed the multitudes with fish that he furnished. Did I? I merely said that Jesus fed the people animals. (Fish is a form of animal). So Jesus promoted animal consumption. That’s not hard to understand.

            I don’t want to live in a theocracy – so I believe in the separation of church and state. And who ever said religions are moral? ha. Some of the very bloodiest of human wars were over church and religion. Some of the biggest rascals on the face of the earth wear or wore cleric garbs. A recent example is the child molestation scandals in the Catholic Church. Some in the church hierarchy protected the violators. That’s not an opinion. That’s a documented fact.

            If you want to believe that blessing animals is fine – good for you. You have a right to your opinion. I simply disagree with you.

            The County has been a terrible caretaker of the animals for decades. Again, this has been documented extensively. You claim we have to more closely monitor ordinary citizens in their care of animals. I believe first we need to more closely monitor the County to ensure that they stop the inhumane treatment of animals in their custody. We need to clean up County government first. Then we can work on the people.

            Sound like a plan? 🙂

          • Vicki

            Oh dear, please do share your opinion, I have no problem with that. My problem was when you said “But when we discuss animals we should keep Jesus and religion out of it”. You were stating what “we” should talk about.
            Had you said “But when we discuss animals “I” should keep Jesus and religion out of it” that would be fine as you are regulating yourself “I” and not others “we”.
            See the difference?

            You don’t need to control people, that can be exhausting and saying (“you need to calm down”) is just rude.. I would not say that to you, it would be disrespectful and over stepping my boundaries. You might want to reflect on why you say such things. Are the words for edification or to “try” and level or control people and their thoughts?
            In response to your statement that “I need to calm down”, I am calm but even if I was not calm that would be my choice. You need to think about the concept of free will and the 1st amendment even if the person exercising that right has a different view.
            Freedom. for. all.
            Because Jesus did not turn over tables you infer by omission He wanted animals to die by sacrifice. I submit that not turning over tables does not imply His PERFECT will was animal sacrifice. His perfect will was no sacrifices. He agonized over the sacrifice of giving His own life, praying so earnestly for another way that His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
            As I said earlier, to obey is better than sacrifice.

            If Jesus thought animal sacrifices were a “good idea” then why did he die on the cross for our sins? He could have just left the people alone to continue on
            and watched from Heaven. He HAD to come because the ONLY way to get to Heaven was through FAITH in his atonement, His shed blood. Everything including the blood on the door during the 1st Passover pointed to HIS SACRIFICE not the animal sacrifice.
            The power to restore is in His blood, not the animal sacrifice.
            Remember the words of communion, after His resurrection; This is my body, which is given for you. He does not say here is the body of animals given for you even though they had been sacrificed. Animals could not save people, people cannot save people, a priest cannot absolve you of your sins. Only God can. There is One mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus.

            That, as I said before is WHY He came to give His life thus ENDING animal sacrifices because final atonement was made and the words spoken on the cross were “It is finished” indicating the debt was paid in full for you and I. That is why He is SEATED at the right hand of the Father. Because the work is done!

            As far as blessing animals, I actually think they are the ones who bless us the most and if someone wants to bless them I don’t see it as a problem. The churches are just buildings. Christians are the real temples that hold the Holy Spirit within them. Christ did not get caught up in ritual and tradition, “And He said unto them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
            He elevated animals by stating that thus placing an animal’s well being over a religious law and tradition.
            So in modern day terms; If a dog gets hit by a car while I’m on my way to church, it’s ok for me to pull over and help (bless) the dog and miss church.
            The law was summed up “do unto OTHERS as you would have them do to you.

            Lastly, what I feel about the County is we need to do BOTH, improve animal care and hold people accountable for the animals they are caretakers of. We have too many animals receiving subpar care and it needs to be regulated. Too many people breeding animals for profit and tossing them away like garbage when they are through. If more monitoring took place then perhaps people would think twice about treating their dogs like slot machines. If someone needed a permit to breed maybe they would think harder about backyard breeding and a quick buck at the expense of the animal.

            So, yes, that (both) sounds like a plan, accountability for the welfare of the animals by the government and accountability for the animals “owned” by the public as well.

            Have a great night!

          • LFOldTimer

            1. If I say that “we should not eat broccoli” that is my opinion. It does not mean that you have to cease eating broccoli. Your problem is that you take a comment and give it meaning that was never intended. That’s your problem. Not mine.

            2. You told me that I was “over stepping my boundaries”. I did nothing of the sort. I have as much right to an opinion as you do. When people make such a presumptive accusation I generally tell them to ‘calm down’.

            3. I have been a huge proponent of the 1st Amendment. I don’t need your added encouragement. It won’t make me any bigger a proponent.

            4. I have no idea why Jesus did not protest animal sacrifices in his day. You’d have to ask him. But animal sacrifices were prevalent throughout his life on earth. That is a historical fact.

            5. Animal sacrifices actually were widespread for a full generation after the death of Christ.

            6. There are still animal sacrifices today in Orange County. Didn’t you read about the denomination that swings chickens over their heads to transfer human sin to the animal and then slaughter the chickens, apparently as a symbolic atonement ritual? There was a recent court ruling on it. The judge said the practice could be continued. So in 2016 it’s still happening today. Many years after Jesus was crucified.

            7. We disagree on the blessing of animals. We won’t convince one another otherwise. I have stated my opinion.

            8. I believe the county has to clean it’s own house before imposing more laws or regulations on the populous. Once the county starts treating animals humanely it can demand the people to follow suit. I say LEAD BY EXAMPLE.

            Sleep well.

  • Rose Tingle

    LFOldTimer and annomouse…….If people would be more conscious of what they do as to how it affects animals, we could all make a positive difference in the lives of animals, God’s creation. …….eat more plant based food and less meat or meat from farmers who allow animals to live a normal life ………..technology has made faux fur just as beautiful as real fur………choose adopting over buying from breeders unless you can visit the breeder in person and verify the “mom” and babies are properly cared for and not a “puppy mill”………spay or neuter your pet to help stop the needless killing of homeless pets, etc……

    Animals are equal in their capacity to suffer…..

    Compassion bestowed upon anyone is beneficial to the “bestower” as well as the being to which compassion is shown.

    • annomouse

      Rose, I agree with you that if people were more conscious of how their eating habits affected animals we could prevent a lot of suffering in this world.
      Americans especially consume far more meat than is necessary to survive and far more than is healthy. If everyone ate less meat they could afford to buy a better quality and more humanely raised product.
      Over 40 years ago I was in an agriculture program in High School and my project was raising some feeder pigs to sell at the county fair. When the time came to sell them, that broke my heart and I vowed to never eat a four legged animal again and I never have. I try to eat as little meat (fish and fowl) as possible, but admit I could never go full vegan and live with out cheese and eggs.
      We all need to be more aware of how our actions affect the planet.

  • LFOldTimer

    In terms of DNA there’s only a small difference between a tiger and a human being. A few percentage points. I don’t consider myself superior to animals. I treat them with the same respect that I would treat a deserving human being. In fact, I treat animals with MORE respect than I do certain human beings who are undeserving of my respect. The tiger would eat me for dinner if he was hungry enough and I would eat the tiger for dinner if I was hungry enough. That’s Mother Nature and Darwin’s The Origin of the Species at work. You don’t seem to have the capacity to connect those dots for some reason.

    The Clinton’s actually pulled the trigger and murdered the animals FOR SPORT! By the time I come across an animal in the supermarket meat department it’s already expired. And by nature God made man a carnivore. Again, you don’t seem to have the capacity to connect those dots.

    You couldn’t put a Big Mac within striking distance from Bill Clinton without it being devoured quicker than a rattlesnake bite. Who’s fooling who? The only reason he turned Vegan is for health reason – due to his ongoing problems with his quadruple bypass. His turning Veganism has NOTHING to do with the welfare of animals. So stop with the drama. And Hillary eats meat like a Russian sailor.

    Wikileaks determined that the DNC and Clinton associates were behind maliciously destroying the Bernie Sander’s campaign. That’s the reason Debbie Wasserman Shultz resigned if you bothered to pay any attention.Speaking to the Brazilian firm Banco Itaú in 2013, Clinton said her “dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders.”, while she has feigned border protectionism when she saw the favorable winds drift toward Trump’s position of closed borders. She’s a feigner and a hypocrite. In 2014 Clinton expressed concerns about electronic security and worried about how easily the Russians and the Chinese could hack American electronic devices while she used an UNSECURED HOME SERVER to store highly classified government emails. ha. She LIED to Congress about it UNDER SWORN OATH. And OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE by bleaching 33,000 emails AFTER being served with a subpoena demanding the production of her emails on her home server. ha. And that’s only a minuscule part of it. So I suppose you’ll try to justify all that too, won’t ya?

    I never said that Trump is an angel. He’s a pig in several ways. But he pales in comparison to the unprosecuted criminal Hillary Clinton!

    Didn’t you read the quote at the Hillary Clinton website posted by Rose Tingle?

    Here is it again ” “Hillary Clinton is committed to promoting animal welfare and protecting animals from cruelty and abuse. The way our society treats animals is a reflection of our humanity.”

    Hillary is a proven hypocrite on animal rights. She and Bill have a histories of shooting innocent ducks from the sky. And she promotes animal welfare? ha. I’ll wait for your response.

    Don’t forget about the $850,000 settlement payment to Paula Jones for forcing himself sexually on her.

    And he used his position as President to seduce vulnerable young Intern Monica Lewinsky and tarnished the Oval Office forever by engaging in self-serving sexual pleasures with her at his desk and then lied to the American public about it on national TV. If they lied then – what’s to stop him from lying today? Once a liar, always a liar. If Trump’s a pig Bill Clinton is a 4 ton hog rolling in the slop and mud.

    I make no excuses for Denny Hastert. He’s a hog too. But your diversion is very telling. When the kitchen gets a little too hot to discuss the FACTS about Hillary and Bill Clinton you bring up unrelated personalities. Deal with that!

    • annomouse

      “By the time I come across an animal in the supermarket meat department it’s already expired.”

      Is that the LIE you tell your self? Yeah, the animals lived a beautiful life and then just fell down dead.


      Intensely Confined

      Farmed animals are crammed by the thousands into dark, waste-filled sheds. Many spend their entire lives locked in cages so small they can’t turn around.


      Animals have their tails cut off, teeth clipped out, and beaks and horns seared off with a hot metal blade. Males have their testicles cut off without anesthesia.


      Workers often punch, kick, and whip sick and injured animals to move them around farm sheds.

      Genetically Manipulated

      Animals are artificially bred to grow so fat so quickly they often suffer crippling leg problems and heart attacks at just a few months of age.

      Denied Veterinary Care

      Sick and injured animals are not given veterinary care. Instead they are left to slowly suffer to death on the floors of sheds.

      Painfully Killed

      Many animals are killed while still fully conscious. Common killing methods include slitting animals’ throats and shooting metal rods through their brains.


      You have a lot nerve condemning the Clintons for hunting a couple of ducks. If you truly respected animals you WOULDN’T EAT THEM! Aah, but you’re nice to lizards, good for you hypocrite!

      • LFOldTimer

        Slaughter houses are regulated by your liberal government, annomouse. Obama is in charge of that. He appoints the directors of all those regulatory agencies, just as Bill and Hillary Clinton did in the 1990’s.

        I noticed again that you skipped over many of the cogent points that I made in my last comment. Looks like I stumped ya. Typical.

        I heard tree bark is on sale at the Farmer’s Market today. Run down there. I suspect you may need some animal protein in your diet though. Your comments appear disjointed and make little sense to me. Eat a hamburger. It may help.

        • annomouse

          Gosh, let’s just pretend that we don’t have a Republican congress. Where is all their legislation on slaughterhouses?


          As opposed to this:


          “I noticed again that you skipped over many of the cogent points that I made in my last comment. Looks like I stumped ya. Typical.”

          You didn’t make any “cogent’ points” instead you rage and rant and throw everything into an argument that you can think of because you’re LOSING the argument that we are actually debating. I do not have all day to go one by one and address your anti-Clinton fevered fantasies and even if I did you’d come up with new ones because it’s just crap and there’s an unlimited amount of it sloshing around in your brain.
          I am willing to debate one or even two subjects at a time, but EVERY angry thought that passes into your head, no thanks. I don’t have the time.

          • LFOldTimer

            Obama eats meat too.

            I guess you missed that. ha.

            Me losing the argument?? ha.

            Are you related to Baghdad Bob by chance? 🙂

            You fail to respond to 80% of my arguments. You lose by default.

          • annomouse

            Yes, Obama eats meat, did I ever claim otherwise? You can’t even track your own arguments. You foolishly claimed to be the “true animal advocate” that doesn’t VALUE one animal life over another. I didn’t make that claim, nor did Hillary, Bill or Obama. Only you made that claim, yet you weren’t smart enough to follow such a claim to it’s logical conclusion.
            You can’t LOGICALLY claim to be a animal lover and advocate who “does not VALUE one animal life over another” and still EAT some of them. Choosing which animals you feel it’s okay to eat and which you don’t IS a VALUE judgement. You’ve picked winners (cats, dogs and lizards) and losers (pigs, cows, sheep etc.).

            Most people think and behave such that you can be an animal lover and advocate and still be a meat eater, but that does mean you’ve made a value judgement.

            Logic is not your strong suit.

          • LFOldTimer

            Facts seem to bounce off your brain, annomouse.

            No need to repeat what I said over and over again.

            Now be sure you vote for meat eating Hillary who shoots ducks and enables and defends her sexual predator husband.

            Be kind to women and ducks.

            Have a nice evening.

        • Rose Tingle

          I feel I need to jump in here………….slaughter houses are not regulated by liberal government. In fact, there are “ag gag” laws passed by some states which have made it a crime to do any filming inside any of the slaughter houses. So the right of the public to know how our food is made has been made a crime. The people who work in slaughter houses have become desensitized and the crime rate in these communities has increased. There is nothing that I can say that is healthy about industrial farming….except make money for corporations.

          • LFOldTimer

            The USDA (Food Safety and Inspection Service) inspects slaughter houses. The head of the USDA was appointed by Obama, a liberal.

            There are Federal laws that provide animals with some rights with regard to slaughtering techniques. Obviously, Federal agencies enforce Federal laws.

            We have a liberal executive administration in Federal government. The President is responsible for the enforcement of all laws. So currently slaughter houses are regulated by a liberal government administration.

  • LFOldTimer

    Why was my comment on this subject matter approved at first and then placed into moderation?

    There were no nasty words or rule violations in my comment.

    Because it questions some of the premise presented in the article and offers a different point of view?

    Different points of view should be championed at VOC.

    What’s going on here?

    • Rose Tingle

      My editorial was not intended to be about Clinton vs Trump and furthermore I am registered nonpartisan, but since you brought it up…. Clinton’s website reads; “Hillary Clinton is committed to promoting animal welfare and protecting animals from cruelty and abuse. The way our society treats animals is a reflection of our humanity.”

      • LFOldTimer

        Then why did you mention Eric and Donald Trump, Jr. in your article and fail to mention that both Hillary and Bill Clinton have been known to shoot ducks out of the air?

        Google is your friend.

        If you don’t intend to make it political, then don’t target one side without targeting the other.

        Better yet, don’t target either side.

        And what happened to my first comment that was taken off the comment board? it was approved then about 15 minutes later placed into moderation and it never appeared again.

        There was nothing in the comment that violated the board rules.

        Are opinionated comments that vary from the blog author’s opinions being censored now?

        That’s very un-American.

        • Rose Tingle

          I mentioned the Trump boys and Harper because I was addressing the issue of Elephants. The Asian elephant, the Sri Lankan and Indian elephants are on the endangered list of species and the African elephants are considered vulnerable according to the World Wildlife Fund.
          “Elephants are among the most intelligent of the creatures with whom we share the planet, with complex consciousnesses that are capable of strong emotions. Across Africa they have inspired respect from the people that share the landscape with them, giving them a strong cultural significance. As icons of the continent elephants are tourism magnets, attracting funding that helps protect wilderness areas. They are also keystone species, playing an important role in maintaining the biodiversity of the ecosystems in which they live.”

          I have no control over comments made.

          • LFOldTimer

            If you are truly an animal lover there should be no difference between the value of the life of a duck and an elephant.

            All animals are special. An animal lover should not give one species priority over another.

            You made this political by mentioning Trump. If Trump were not running for President would you have mentioned the names of Eric and Donald Trump, Jr?

            So I cannot accept your explanation. It doesn’t make any logical sense to me.

            Someone is deleting reader comments that adhere to all the board rules. Perhaps the mistake I made was questioning Catholics blessing the animals. I was born and raised Catholic. I was taught in Catholic grade school and high school that animals do not have souls and can’t go to heaven. I asked that question many times since my family owned animals.

            Blessings are designed to add grace to a human’s soul for deliverance from sin and it’s consequences. IOW’s to assist man in the ultimate achievement of entering through the pearly gates of heaven to eternal life and salvation.

            So based on what I was taught by nuns and priests, the blessing of animals contradicts Catholic doctrine. Is the politically correct Pope behind this to satisfy the whims of a socially changing environment? Based upon what I was taught by the Catholic Church blessing of animals appears to be a form of heresy. It contradicts the catechism lessons I learned as a young child and adolescent.

            Catholic doctrine is supposed to be like a ROCK – stable and cemented in stone. 2000 years of doctrine should not change at the whims of a progressive Pope.

            Animals should be respected, cared for and protected from cruelty – but not blessed. That’s taking it way too far. More pop religion. And to me that’s scary.

          • annomouse

            The OBVIOUS difference between duck hunting and elephant and leopard hunting is one is for food and the other is for ‘sport’.

            “Catholic doctrine is supposed to be like a ROCK – stable and cemented in stone. 2000 years of doctrine should not change at the whims of a progressive Pope who bends to social fads.”

            Does that mean you support slavery? Wouldn’t surprise me if you did.

          • LFOldTimer

            A human doesn’t doesn’t have to kill an animal to eat it. He or she can walk into any supermarket and buy their food. Duck hunting is done for SPORT. Apparently you don’t have enough life experience to understand that. The primary intent of a duck hunter is to prove his or her skill at the sport of shooting ducks out of the sky. Even if the duck hunter is unsuccessful at shooting a duck from the sky he or she is still going to eat that evening. So your argument is full of flaws.

            A true animal advocate would detest some joker who shoots ducks out of the sky as much he or she would detest some joker who shoots elephants on an African safari. A true animal advocate would not discriminate based on the beauty or the intelligence of a certain species of animal anymore than one would say it’s okay to treat a mentally disabled human with less respect than it is to treat a Ph.D. with a degree in small particle molecular physics. That’s my point.

            That’s the reason that I asked why Bill Clinton and Hillary weren’t mentioned in the article along with the Trump boys – for full disclosure and balance. Both of the Clintons have a history of being duck hunters. If blog authors choose to be political I only ask that they tell both sides to the story. That’s all. My conscience says that killing a duck for sport is just as bad as killing an elephant for sport. I consider myself a true animal advocate.

            I am one who believes we should treat ALL animals with the same respect, regardless of appearance or intelligence. I have as much respect for a possum I hear crawling along my roof at night as I do a Bengal Tiger. But that’s just me.

            I am speaking of Catholic DOCTRINE that’s been around 2000 years. Slavery was never a part of the SPIRITUAL DOCTRINE that’s been affiliated with Catholicism. So you’ve lost me again with your analogy. I speak from experience since I was born and raised and educated in parochial schools. The blessing of the animals alluded to in this article defies what priests and nuns taught me in my formative years. These blogs are meant to inform the public. But it’s important to let the people know the other side to the story too. That’s part and parcel of a free society that claims to promote democracy.

            I hope that clarifies any misconceptions you may have had.

          • Rose Tingle

            To bless anyone or anything is to confer and confirm our awareness of God’s presence in that which we bless. It is a beneficial practice to bless our food because it reminds us of the Source whence it comes and our bodies receive the benefit of that blessing. To bless our relationships means to remember that every person is a sacred Being and can be treated as such. To Bless our work is to remember God’s presence at the center of every transaction. To bless our world is to confirm our belief that God is working in and through all people and all events for the highest and best for all concerned. Remembering to bless our lives and the lives of others every day will transform us, them, and our world.

          • LFOldTimer

            Have you ever been a Catholic or educated in Catholic schools like I have, Rose?

            Blessing of animals is a brand new phenomenon in the Catholic religion that correlates with new social fads. Capitulating to social whims.

            Had I asked my parish priest to bless my dog back in the day he would have laughed and told me to take a hike. Regardless of what you might think – animals and humans are on completely different spiritual levels. What’s next? Taking our dogs to church to go to confession? Giving our dogs communion? Letting them participate in the Holy Sacraments?

            Catholic doctrine is supposed to be as solid at Peter’s rock. I have great respect for animals – but incorporating them into the Catholic faith devalues and mocks the religion greatly.

            The blessing represents the Trinity – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Only a spiritual consciousness on a human level could comprehend the complexity of that or benefit from it.

            Blessing is grace. Grace is food for the soul. Animals have no soul, according to thousands of years of Catholic doctrine. The blessing of food is for the human that eats it. Not for the food itself. Blessing is not meant for inanimate objects or beings without souls (as defined by Catholic doctrine). It is meant for the human who consumes or participates in using the object.

            I am no longer a practicing Catholic. One reason is due to the nonsense that the modern Catholic Church professes. I can’t be a part of living a lie based upon what I’ve learned in years gone by when the Catholic Church stood for something.

            Have a nice day.

          • Rose Tingle

            Many people, including myself, find hunting repugnant. You have made your point about the Clinton’s duck hunting, so now that is covered. But I wished there had been a discussion about what the editorial is really about….”I believe a community/regional effort can resolve the homeless animals
            AND homeless human issues. And by community, I mean the “community” of
            Orange County……. county, city, corporations and constituents working
            hand in hand, with complete transparency….” “zero campuses in Orange County currently.”

            Orange county is 3rd largest county in California and #19 in over 3000 counties in the U.S. in population density.

            The constituents would like to collaborate with the county and cities, but they so far are not willing, their clandestine meetings are not open to the public and lack transparency. And the corporations, well so far my requests have been met with silence…….

          • LFOldTimer

            So that we can agree on, Rose. You found a common denominator.

            All I ask of you in the future is to keep politics out of it unless you give us both sides to the story – or simply opt to keep personal politics out of it altogether in animal cruelty discussions.

            And religion also tends to bring out the worst in people. You’re bound to get pushback when you attempt to connect religion and animals.

            I fully agree that we should respect animals and care for them in a humane manner. They have 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose, a brain and the same organs that we humans possess. They have claws. We have fingernails. Disrespecting animals is disrespecting humanity. After all, we were formed in the sea and evolved from the monkey. The DNA that separates us from our ancestors is marginal. I respect furry animals more than I respect some humans that other humans hold in high esteem.

            With that said, thank you for our conversation. I hope both of us learned something new.

          • annomouse

            1) What is the difference between shooting your own duck or buying one in a grocery store? Using your logic only vegans can be true animal advocates, which I am willing to concede, although if that is your stance, as a “true animal advocate” I hope you walk the walk.

            2) Doctrine is just the teachings of the church. The church supported slavery and the taking of native peoples land. You can parse it any way you like if it makes you feel better, but the truth is the truth.

          • LFOldTimer

            1.) Of course I walk my talk.

            Just the other day I came across a little lizard in my front yard. I had a 5 minute conversation with him. Of course I did all the talking. But he listened intently. He stood there the entire time. That little lizard has as much value to me as an elephant, a Bengal Tiger or a Great Lion. I don’t discriminate based on looks or intelligence. But I must admit. I have a special place in my heart for all the creatures most other people ignore or take for granted – like DUCKS, for instance.

            And I have NEVER shot a duck out of the sky like Bill or Hillary Clinton.

            To answer your other question, I don’t buy a duck in a supermarket for SPORT! For some reason you can’t seem to wrap that concept around your head.

            2). A DOCTRINE contains the SPIRITUAL rules of a church – not the social rules.

            Btw, we still have slavery in the United States today. We encourage slave labor to illegally cross the border and work under conditions similar to what we saw in the 1920’s in America. And nobody enforces the law to prevent it. So don’t think that slavery has gone away. It’s alive and well. And it’s being promoted. The media doesn’t talk about it so you ignore it.

            You are speak of Canon Law. A completely different concept than Doctrine. Please differentiate.

          • annomouse

            Are you a vegan? Yes or no, because your logic dictates that to be a “true animal advocate” you must be. I find it curious that you haven’t answered that definitively yet.
            What difference does it make if you hunted your duck or bought it as long as you eat it?
            I wonder if the Trump boys ate that leopard?

            Doctrine is the teachings of the church. If the church taught or decreed that slavery was okay, then that was their doctrine. Semantics doesn’t absolve you of history.

          • LFOldTimer

            I’m a carnivore just like most other humans. If I was walking in the jungle and a hungry tiger caught wind of me I would end up on his dinner table. That’s the way God designed us. I wouldn’t hold it against the tiger. If there was any cause for anger it would be at mother nature. Not at the tiger. Just because I eat meat it doesn’t mean I can’t be a animal advocate. I’ve never hunted. At least not animals. I eat to survive, just like the tiger does.

            You are trying to make excuses for the Clintons. That’s disingenuous. Bill and Hillary Clinton shot those ducks for SPORT, not to satisfy their survival instincts or to keep from starving. They killed animals for the fun of it. Why not be honest about it?

            Your wrong. The Catholic Church doctrine never addressed the topic of slavery. At all. So your wires are crossed again. And the fact that you failed to respond to my observation that slavery continues into our modern society is taken with due notice.

            We don’t discuss things that we’d rather hide and avoid. Isn’t that the truth, annomouse?

          • annomouse

            So, you aren’t a “true animal advocate” after all, what a hypocrite. Just because you buy your meat in a grocery store doesn’t absolve you of the animal’s death. The case can be made that at least the hunter who eats what he kills is more honest about his food and not hiding the killing behind a sanitized plastic wrapper.

            There are a couple of Papal Bulls okaying slavery, you can claim that it wasn’t a “spiritual” teaching or whatever BS you want to use to paper over it, but the result was the same, people enslaved.

            You’re right I am ignoring your rant comparing illegal immigration to slavery. I was trying to stay on topic, plus you seem quite dogmatic about it and that doesn’t seem like it would lead to a fruitful conversation.

          • LFOldTimer

            If you want to stay on topic why don’t you address Bill and Hillary as the animal murderers they are? Both claim to be pro-gun control, yet both have a history of murdering innocent ducks as their fly through the air. But you’re such a hypocrite that you refuse to acknowledge it.

            Humans were designed to eat meat. That’s why we have a set of teeth. To chew meat. That’s the way God designed us. Just like the tiger, I eat to survive. The tiger doesn’t subsist on lettuce and berries and tree roots. Neither do I. That doesn’t mean I’m not a animal advocate. I’m probably 5x’s the animal advocate you are, even if all you eat is tree bark.

            You can’t find a single word in Catholic doctrine that promotes slavery. If you could you’d post it. So, as usual, you’re off the mark by a mile and a half.

          • annomouse

            You’re the one who said “To a true animal lover there should be no difference between the value of the life of a duck and an elephant.”
            I’m judging you on YOUR WORDS, how can you be an animal advocate and justify the eating of factory farmed meat? How much do you value the lives of pigs, cows and sheep? Those animals have horrible lives and are then brutally killed. At least hunted animals are living free before they are killed.
            And news flash this is 2016, if you wanted to live meat free and cruelty free you could easily do it. No one NEEDS to eat meat today to survive. Some animal lover you are, savagely eating the dead carcasses of poor tortured animals.

            Hillary supports expanded background checks, she has NEVER been against hunting or hunters.

            Face it, you really just want to smear the Clintons and to that end you’ll use any lie, any smear and all the tortured logic you can muster, but sorry, all you accomplished was to make yourself look foolish.

            For an overview of the Catholic Church and slavery:


            From Wikipedia:

            Papal bulls such as Dum Diversas, Romanus Pontifex and their derivatives, sanctioned slavery and were used to justify enslavement of natives and the appropriation of their lands during this era

            Dum Diversas is a papal bull issued on 18 June 1452 by Pope Nicholas V. It authorized Afonso V of Portugal to conquer Saracens and pagans and consign them to “perpetual servitude”

            Romanus Pontifex, Latin for “The Roman Pontiff”, is a papal bull written in 1454 by Pope Nicholas V to King Afonso V of Portugal. As a follow-up to the Dum Diversas, it confirmed to the Crown of Portugal dominion over all lands south of Cape Bojador in Africa. Along with encouraging the seizure of the lands of Saracen Turks and non-Christians, it repeated the earlier bull’s permission for the enslavement of such peoples.

          • LFOldTimer

            God gave me a set of teeth to include premolars that were designed specifically to tear and chew meat. God made me a carnivore. Just like he made the tiger a carnivore. That’s part of being human for which I don’t apologize. I don’t shoot animals for sport, I don’t step on lizards and I’ve treated the animals I’ve owned in my lifetime like Kings and Queens. If they could rise from the dead and talk they would all attest to that. That makes me an animal advocate, regardless of your interpretation. Like the tiger I eat meat to survive. I have nothing against the tiger who would eat me for dinner in the jungle. And I should hope the tiger has nothing against me unless I would hunt him for sport, which I would never do. But if you want to survive on tree bark that’s your choice, annomouse. I wish you luck. The good Lord put me on earth to live a full life which I intend to do.

            The Clintons are animal murderers, while publicly claiming to be pro-gun control and pro-animal. ha. You refuse to acknowledge that. But I guess that makes sense since Hillary told Wall Street (leaked by Wikileaks) that she has 2 opinions – one public and one private. ha. No wonder she didn’t want her Wall Street bank speeches made public with the transcripts. She speaks with forked tongue. That’s just the way she’s designed. Same with being an enabler and defender of one of the biggest sexual assailants to ever roam the White House floor. That can’t be denied. Then she has the nerve to lite into Trump for some locker room talk 10 years ago, talk that 95% of the male species has engaged in at some point in their lives. And talking to many women, I understand females have quite dirty mouths in their locker rooms as well. So it’s a flaw in the human character and a part of the human condition. But I don’t think Trump would engage in staining a blue dress in the Oval Office and then proceed to lie about it on national television. I think he probably has more class than that. I’ll fully concur that in some ways Trump’s a pig. But he’s not that filthy a pig.

            Finally, I’ve tried to help you with the definition of DOCTRINE. But apparently I haven’t broken though. So I’ll just chalk it up to ignorance and we’ll have to agree to disagree.

            Good night.

  • LFOldTimer

    It was always my understanding that Catholic doctrine historically taught that animals have no souls and can’t go to heaven.

    It was also my understanding that the intention of a blessing is to add grace to the soul in an effort to promote salvation or the deliverance from sin and it’s consequences.

    I was Catholic in my formative years and this is what I was taught by nuns and priests.

    Based on what I was taught the blessing of animals by the Catholic Church appears to be a form a heresy.

    I agree with the need to respect animals, to treat them with dignity and to prevent others from treating them in a cruel manner.

    But blessing them? That’s going way too far. Is that another Pope Francis invention? He seems intent on turning the Catholic Church upside down by changing 2000 years of doctrine that was supposed to be set in stone to appease social norms during the course of his short reign.

    He’s turning out to be the publicity stunt Pope.

    Catholics should be furious.